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| Cooler's true power; Cooler, Freeza, King Cold, Movie 5 | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 1 2011, 10:57 PM (2,269 Views) | |
| + Pyrus | Nov 4 2011, 08:21 PM Post #31 |
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Goku only commented on Cooler's strength surpassing Freeza's during his transformation, and we know that Cooler is stronger than Freeza in any form, so it is very possible that Cooler felt he couldn't beat Goku with his full 4th form power, so he went straight to his 5th form where he knew he could easily overwhelm him. Goku and Cooler were fighting near evenly before the transformation, so right from that we can conclude that Base Goku < Freeza. Edited by Pyrus, Nov 4 2011, 08:22 PM.
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Nov 4 2011, 08:24 PM Post #32 |
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Why? I think they should be exactly equal. I think Goku's comment makes it impossible for 4th form Cooler > 100% 4th form Freeza. IMO.....base Goku [post zenkai] (movie 5) > 4th form Cooler = 100% 4th form Freeza Edited by Victorious, Nov 4 2011, 08:25 PM.
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| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 4 2011, 08:41 PM Post #33 |
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Why would they be exactly equal? Cooler didn't regard his brother very highly. If Cooler and Freeza were equals in each form, then that would put Goku just barely ahead, since he wasn't exactly kicking Cooler's *****. Cooler also knew Goku was a Super Saiyan, so he was most likely factoring that in as well. Sort of off-topic, but to add onto why I don't think Goku got a zenkai, there's an entry in D6 that sort of helps. "Having seen through Goku's abilities in an instant, Coola is convinced that Goku isn't dead, and orders the Armored Squad to find him." It suggests Goku was either suppressed, or Cooler was assuming a lot more power from him. |
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Nov 5 2011, 02:30 PM Post #34 |
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Well when in your transformed/5th state you're 30-40x stronger than your brother you shouldn't regard your brother very high. 4th form Cooler should be at maximum = since Goku said only after Cooler transformed that Cooler had a bigger ki than Freeza 100% 4th form Freeza >= 4th form Cooler. I personally feel they should simply be equal, and Cooler's final form transformation is what separates them.
yeah base Goku should only be a bit higher than 4th form Cooler. He did have the total advantage but you can see Cooler took his punches without taking too much damage. I have 4th form Cooler = 100% 4th form Freeza base Goku [post zenkai] movie 5 = Super Saiyan Goku (Namek). |
| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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| Mr. Blonde | Nov 5 2011, 02:34 PM Post #35 |
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Actually, you've converted me. The Zenkai Goku got in that movie wouldn't have to be anywhere near the size of the one he got on Namek to make him stronger than 100% Freeza, and since the movie is non-canon anyway it doesn't matter how strong Cooler's max is. Going off on a tangent, is anyone else annoyed with how non-canon Movie 5 is? It could've been a brilliant sidestory during the training for the Androids, but it was another canon clusterfudge like the other movies. |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 5 2011, 03:28 PM Post #36 |
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Hm, so are you using the anime fight between Freeza and Goku?
I wish Movie 5 was canon. I loved it, and it would've been something nice to see instead of a total time gap. |
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| lunar2 | Nov 5 2011, 03:39 PM Post #37 |
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it actually isn't. it's one of the few movies that fits the canon timeline almost perfectly (the others being the dead zone, bojack unbound, and wrath of the dragon). actually, bojack unbound does fit perfectly, while the other three just require a little bit of interpretation. dead zone: the only reason it doesn't fit canon is because it didn't canonically happen (e.g. in canon, piccolo and goku never met between the 23rd budokai and raditz's arrival, while the dead zone happens something like a year before raditz). cooler's revenge: if you would actually interpret cooler's and goku's statements, instead of insisting that they be taken at face value, then goku is barely stronger than the trunks saga, if at all, and the movie fits perfectly within a few months after the trunks saga. if you want to take the statements literally, then you can still put the movie towards the end of the 3 year timeskip, and simply say that goku's 3 years of training was enough to get him to frieza's level. either way, the movie fits comfortably within the three year timeskip with no hax. wrath of the dragon: occurs within six months after the buu arc, based on the fact that buu isn't there, and presumably still hiding. the only possible issue is that ssj3 goku appears to be stronger than u. gohan and ssj3 gotenks. however, goku was fighting hiru after hiru was already weakened, so it's entirely possible that goku was skilled enough, and hiru was weakened enough, to allow goku hold him off when the others couldn't. |
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list of canon sources: the DB manga, and the Dr. Slump manga as it applies to the crossover during the rra saga. list of non canon sources: everything else, regardless of origin, format, or quality. for those that blindly follow word of god | |
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Nov 12 2011, 03:53 AM Post #38 |
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Yeah why? I don't think the anime portrays the fight between Freeza and Goku any differently than the manga did. Although they dragged out the 5 minutes to like 5 hours length. |
| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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| SSJ Ranulf | Nov 12 2011, 04:20 AM Post #39 |
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I'm with lunar on this one. I do think that Goku must have been quite strong (~5,000,000-6,000,000), which Cooler would think would let him role over initial final form Frieza, and then his KKx20 (~100,000,000-120,000,000) would be the majority of Frieza's power. I personal think that this is the most logical interpretation, while still fitting with all the statements and not ignoring anything. It just means that Cooler was thinking about it pretty hard, rather than just assuming that for Frieza to be beaten, Goku had to be >> Frieza's full power before showing him all of his techniques. Basically, my opinion is when Cooler saw Goku's base full power, he thought "OK, I can see why this guy would have been able to beat Frieza, he's pretty strong." Then, when he saw the KKx20, he would have thought something like "Oh, that clears it up: THIS is what he specifically used. I guess Frieza did die near his full power..." Personal, I think 4th form Cooler would be a bit above full power Frieza, and he just wanted to show off (like how Frieza did going from his 3rd to 4th, and imo 2nd to 3rd forms) by going to his 5th: I also think he was being careful of someone who he thought killed his brother. I think that his 5th form would be anywhere from 1.5x Frieza to as much as 2x Frieza. And I totally think this moive would make canon way better. It would be my number two choice, after Bojack Unbound. It adds an interesting villain, and lets Goku get another victory under his belt (which, in Z, he almost seems lacking in). |
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Nov 12 2011, 05:56 PM Post #40 |
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I don't think Cooler ever said anything about Kaioken x 20 Goku's power. He demolished it, that's all I remember. in true/4th form he just said base Goku was "enough" to beat Freeza, and after fighting Super Saiyan Goku in 5th/final form he said Freeza was "no match" for Goku. base Goku > Freeza Super Saiyan Goku >>> Freeza. That's what I got out of the whole thing. Edited by Victorious, Nov 12 2011, 05:57 PM.
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| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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| + Pyrus | Nov 12 2011, 06:26 PM Post #41 |
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When Goku uses Kaio-ken x10 (as I don't think he used x20 until the Kamehameha, mirroring the Freeza fight), Cooler makes a couple comments. Time: 36 minute mark Cooler: "What's wrong? Is this the extent of a Super Saiyan's power?" (right before the Kamehameha) "I find you entertaining." (after beating Goku into the rock) "Hmph, how dull. Super Saiyans only exist in legends after all, I guess." I kind of think Cooler was just assuming that because Goku was "the Super Saiyan of legend" that he was able to defeat Freeza. I mean, he wasn't exactly surprised when Goku suddenly powered up with Kaio-ken or anything. Edited by Pyrus, Nov 12 2011, 06:26 PM.
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Nov 12 2011, 07:30 PM Post #42 |
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I dunno, he fought base Goku and said base Goku was did "as well as I (he) expected, enough to have defeated my (his) brother." To me that suggests that Goku right there was exhibiting powers greater than Freeza could. His taunting of Kaioken Goku basically just means Kaioken Goku is still nothing compared to his 5th form. Edited by Victorious, Nov 12 2011, 07:38 PM.
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| Victorious' fan made Dragon Ball Z Battle Power (Sentō-ryoku) list | |
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